Надградба на ГТЦ

Originally posted by pbanks Originally posted by kultuzin  Според мене не е решение само стопирање на градбата туку повторување на тендерот и избор на фасада која нема да го нарушува концептот на градскиот трговски центар. Само  така ќе се реши овој проблем инаку со промена на урбанистичкиот план само се одоговлекуваат процедурите.   Но проект веќе има, избран пред неколку години на конкурс од истиов директор на ГТЦ, сосема соодветен. Зошто би повторувале процедури до бескрај?

Кој проект ќе се избере не ми беше поентата , што се однесува до мене може и тој постар проект да се стави во игра секако со прилагодување на денешните стандарди на градба и технологија. 

Поентата ми е дека со ГТЦ треба активно да се направи нешто а не да се стави во некоја пасивна позиција за после некое време повторно да се активира истата идеа. Инаку според мене колку и да се лоши замислените проекти ако неможат трајно да се спречат туку само да се одовлекуват подобро нека се реализират веднаш, со други зборови освен што ќе се блокираат проектите треба да се барат трајни решенија. 

Реално, нема лек за тој трговски поради фрагментацијата која се направи во 90те кога се приватизираа дуќаните.

Без централно управување со воведување на строги стандарди и правила, таа шареноликост ќе остане и тој никогаш нема да може да се носи со модерните молови во смисла на шопинг искуство. Никаква барокна фасада или затворање нема да го смени тоа бидејќи проблемите се од друга природа.

Незнам дали е можно да се поведе иницијатива трговскиот да се продаде на еден инвеститор, за мене тоа е единствен лек. Секако, таа иницијатива треба да тргне од сопствениците на локалите.

Има ли опциjа „приjави“ за да ги приjавам (репортнам) овие трол-постови на дотичниов над мене?

Leave the man to speak his mind. Why are getting so frustrated when a guy comes to you and blows it in your face? You argue of pure architecture talks, even then, I've seen senior members talking gibberish in their posts, which reminds that you have no clue of architecture either. The guy made a very good point and I am very sorry you miss the point. 50 years ago, there was noone to object when then-architects made a Japanese face-lifting with forms that have no cultural/historical or whatsoever relation to Macedonia. I wish you share some of your protests about that too. The fact is Macedonia had its own styles well before and they were leveled to the ground, even so when you see them in photos, you still avoid arguing about that.

I love to see Skopje as city of several cities within. The Golem Ring (neoclassical), Stara Carsija (Ottoman), Kale, Mid-Vodno and Matka(Medieval), Skupi, Aquaduct and Taor (Antique), Aerodrom, Taftalidze (Brutalist), Debar Maalo (Art Deco) and somewhere around Aerodrom there should be a business district with the newest forms of contemporary architecture (something that the private sector will build by itself). You then pick your own spot and stick within its boundaries if you are disgusted by other styles that much. This is how you get a historical/cultural time mixture as every other civilized city has. Sometimes the Macedonians abroad look at those in the Republic and ask what the fuck is going on, why nothing moves ahead and why the fuck all our neighbors who were naked and illiterate are running ahead of us?!

Edited by vepar - 13-Jun-2013 at 11:59

Ok then fuck the parties and all the savages with them.
Btw, you should be the first one to name few buildings, which I believe both of us would agree, should be protected and leave the city to move on. Why not have the center in neoclassicism?! It was there before.. Its like getting over a close one who died. You cant live all your life in the 60s. Be frank,
GTC is far away from any cultural value, so as Vlada. We may talk of MNT, university, zajcev rid, Goce Delcev, Posta/Telekom as worthy but all the rest is pure bullshit. I frankly love to see the leveled neoclassicism back (the earthquaked one) but only limited to Golem Ring and no more. And why not even build more of Brutalism in Taftalidze or Aerodrom, I would even welcome buildings like that in certain designated areas. You then allow each architectural school to have its own territory and then fight in ideas. Let's see who's gonna get more traction?! Why do have to have all these concrete in the center??!!

FYI, I happen to moved quite a lot throughout my life, and I can tell you very frankly that 60s Skopje looked much like Baghdad or Hebron and all alike in Africa where the Yugoslav companies were building. It certainly didn't resemble any Tokyo or whatsoever, although it is Japanese architecture. For your information, just came back from Tokyo and the Japs are tearing down those blocks, all out-dated my friend. Speaking of Kenzo Tange, could you please relate his Japanese inspired Brutalism with any Macedonian roots?! I can't, and I gave a pretty good try to explain Katolicka or any other as for that matter. Fact is, the majority recognize Brutalism was bullshit, and its not what we needed in first place. The only explanation of Brutalism I heard so far is because it was envisioned by Tange, who was very famous. To be frank I only heard of Tange because he was known in Macedonia, and I haven't seen much attention to him elsewhere. Not even Japan that much. Furthermore, to me it looks like if Norman Foster came and shit on Skopje's square you would take that as an architectural shrine.

Edited by vepar - 13-Jun-2013 at 13:24

poleka no sigurno, oko ne im trepnuva na tie sto treba...

@vepar

You know, I wouldn't be so loud and bitter if what you propose is on the ground in particular this part

You then allow each architectural school to have its own territory and then fight in ideas. Let's see who's gonna get more traction?!

...was true.

Had it been like this, I would express my dissatisfaction because I'm a proponent of modern styles and ides, but I wouldn't consider it to be a crime. Defacing the central buildings is a crime in my opinion, in particular the 10-12 landmark object among which are the ones you mentioned but including GTC and Vlada.

Although maybe they are not architectural marvels, I'm also against the reconstruction of the ministry of justice and multiple other business/office building from the 70s which I consider to create a distinct quarter representing that era which doesn't look bad at all, on the contrary.

Why does Skopje center have ot be Golem/Mal ring? Why not expand it? I have always been a proponent to this. For example, I'm always afraid that quaters like Madzir or Novo Maalo will be simply swamped by typical apartment buildings which I'm against. I'd like to see the center expanding towards the railway station creating filling in the holes and creating a logical whole. Had all these resources been forwarded to creating a new neoclassical quarter as you say, that would have been a good deed actually because it would also ensure that a proper zoning for a central area would have been put in place in the wider central area.

I don't know why you guys from Australia always presume we don't travel from here? I have moved fairly enough as well, I have even lived abroad for some time. I'm quite aware of the looks of other cities and there is always a proper explanation.

1. Most of those cities didn't have the calamities that Skopje went through
2. Most of those cities have much larger historical legacy (in an architectural sense) to begin with. You guys can't come to senses that Skopje was a dump till the balkan wars (unfortunately), regardless of its long history as a settlement and its previous days of relative glory (let's say till Pikolomini etc...). It was barely a town, let alone a city. It's urban development and transformation to a real city comes in 3 ways, kingdom of Yugoslavia, post WW2, and post earthquake. While each of these periods bares importance, it is the post quake period that made this place a city and a regional metropolis. It is these foundations that in the transitional years with all the mistakes we are making are still keeping Skopje a very decent place. Right now it's the 4th coming for Skopje, there is indeed a lot of construction and not just SK2014. However the larger part of these constructions are only decomposing its urban foundation.
3. Most of these cities have gone through a continuous development throughout the decades, hence there is no dominance of a particular style, but there is the sort of layering you propose. Brutalism is so dominant in Skopje because after the earthquake which destroyed it, the expansion of the city bursted in the following ~15 years and than stalled for decades. Otherwise Tokyo, London, Boston or Toronto have more and larger brutalist structures and landmark locations, they are just not as dominant in the urban landscape as it is the case with Skopje.


Edited by pbanks - 13-Jun-2013 at 16:43

Originally posted by Skopje needs help It is not me or you that needs help, but the entire macedonian generation left in limbo from people like you against change..

Oh, believe me, I'm all for change. But, please, only the ones for the better.
Not all changes are good. A change in rule in 1933 turned the world into a bloodbath a few years later. Would you tell any of them 60 million fallen it was all for the better?

Originally posted by Skopje needs help Why not go back 100 years under turkish rule, why not bring back the dirty cheap original macedonian airport, why not bring back communism, they seem to have destroyed what little character there was of original skopje, change is not a part of your vocabulary..

Well, we're still under Turk rule, with all them Turkish soaps around.

But the Turks actually brought much progress to the city. Sk was pretty big and important almost to the end of 17th century, but then, a change came (you adore changes don't you), and burned it all.
After that it sat quiet for almost 200 years until the Turks build the railway which brought progress to the city.
Serbian rulers prolly built the first airport, commies the 2nd, Turks (always them) renovated it a few years ago.
Communism brought enormous progress not only to the city but to the country and people all together. We got our long-seeked national recognition, our own Republic, the rights to read, speak and learn on our mother tongue, universities, hospitals, roads, dams, resorts... Sure there were wrongs. Centralization for one. Skopje quadrupled in size, the provinces left behind under-developed and empty of people.
And yet, as if we didn't know how wrong this is, the govt is still doing it. Hundreds of millions of euros are poured into the city, peanuts for the rest of the country.

Originally posted by Skopje needs help Change can realize great benefits to the average citizen, if you still want to be under occupation, so be it, but today people have woken up and demanded an independent state, and progress is part of that consignment... A country that never moves on and stays the same...this will only exacerbate the exodus of great minds from macedonia to countries that Foster change, innovation and development for the greater good of all.. GTC is a dump and an avoidance of all tourists , infact Skopje up until 2010 was a no go zone for any tourist..

Oh, we're all under occupation everywhere (except for a few tribes in the Amazon), but that's a different topic.

Great minds don't give a rat's ass for neoclassical facades (were they authentic or not). They care for the economy, infrastructure, civil liberties, free press, unbiased law system, fast/pro/coop administration, education, health and culture. It's far from satisfying, and not given the chance to change it for the better they see no other option but to leave. Also it's very hard to find a decent job without membership to the ruling party.

It's highly unrealistic to believe that any tourist would come to Skopje to admire its newborn-wet behind the ears-a few centuries out of fashion-quasi neoclassical facades when they have tons of real-authentic buildings in the original styles everywhere around them. They might come just to laugh about it. On the other hand they will come to enjoy our ancient-roman-byzantine-ottoman cultural heritage, our unspoiled nature, our cuisine and warm hospitality. And don't forget the many unique Brut pieces of modern architecture.

Originally posted by Skopje needs help Dali si SDSM, a dead species destroying the life blood of makedonija!!

Nope.

I'm just one of them rare ones who've had the misfortune to have that gray thing in our head. A brain, that's what we call it. And, as if that wasn't enough, a wicked curse has fallen upon us few to never stop using it.

Edited by fichot - 14-Jun-2013 at 02:00

Голем дел од иселенициве се тотално шлакнати и луди до краен предел. Сосема се загубила врската со реалноста и особено проценката за вистинската ситуација во Македонија. Значи многу е лесно од Австралии и други земји од тој ранг да се даваат оцени и споредувања на Македонија со Германија и тоа да се користи како алиби за нашите глупости. По истатра логика јас барам се што има Германија да го има и во Македонија ама цврц!

Втора работа е што во последно време мнопгу зема да им се слуша гласот околу тоа како да живеат луѓето кои дефакто живеат во Македонија. Зошто некој од Сидни да има право да кажува во кој правец да се насочи Македонија? Може да продолжат на овој начин буквално од земја да се трескаат, но нивното мислење е тотално ирелевантно бидејќи ем немаат права слика за ситуацијата и дереџето кај нас ем извинете но немаат ни големо право да даваат смерници, особено не пак споредувајќи не со Германија.