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Developtments in Macedonia |
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Goran 
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Joined: 09-Jul-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 195 |
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#1 Topic: Developtments in MacedoniaPosted: 31-May-2011 at 03:36 |
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Man, I don't know who you hung out with in Bitola, but I assure you, and I know this from personal experience, that Florina is as dull as they get. Sth like Ohio, give or take  The night life has nothing to do with what we're talking about here, but Florina sucks ∂ønkey båll$, and Bitola is way better than Florina (but still stupid, at best, compared to Skopje). The cleanliness part is what I definitely agree with, but hey, it's a small place, if you do something stupid you might get caught, and then everyone will know (if you're not from the Balkans this might seem pretty confusing to you, but that's how life goes here, what others say and think of you). Just go to Thessaloniki, and see how 'clean' it is. But it's no excuse, Berlin is gigantic, and still cleaner than any city in Macedonia.
That comes as a result to Greece's κοινωτικά πλαίσια στήριξης, which are something like what we had in former Yugoslavia, 5-year plans (funded with EU's money of course, but not by the EU), during which roads, bridges - infrastructure to cut to the chase, is built. Also, the EU has a programme (the ERDF - European Regional Development Fund) for the underdeveloped peripherial parts of its member countries, which I assure you throws money at EU's members begging them to improve the infrastructure, quality of life (and other sectors, I forgot how they group them) in such areas.. So, it should't come as a surprize. While all other (now) EU member countries took advantage of EU's funds while they were still only candidate countries, we, (having mastermind accountants and attorneys), couldn't fiil out the forms needed to be eligible for EU's funds in time, and now they say that by 2010 we might get fundings in 3 out of 5 sectors. [/QUOTE] Hi to all I just
read all this. It is good has record with dates. |
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Cloverstack
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#2 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 11:34 |
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Formula based only on the population is a bad formula, plus what use is such a formula even to the poorest places if the overall % of the public money allocated to the municipalities is inadequately low (as I suspect was the case before the decentralization also) Today the municipalities have their own sources of financing, but they are way too low (for example the % of the VAT), so they still haevily depend on the government's will. What we should do is raise those sources, and in addition (to help the underdeveloped) we should still have a % of distribution directly from the government regulated by a formula. About the 99%, I already pointed out that I exagarrated |
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lslcrew
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Joined: 14-Jan-2008 Location: Skopje Online Status: Offline Posts: 10988 |
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#3 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 08:33 |
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Maybe this is some of the positive aspects of the problem of investment. I don't see our external debt as a argument. Why should we be different from our neighboors?! The inflation that is going today in a global view can completely "eat" the Credeit-interest (kamata), so I don't think that is a such smart idea not to take credits as a country. I've also been "on line" with you some of the time, but the thing that puts me in dilemma all the time is "Why are we the smartest in our neightboorhood?!". But I'm not an economist, sometimes the economy and financial managment seem to so strange. I don't know maybe some day this will be a benefit for Macedonia, but i'm not sure!
 Edited by lslcrew - 25-Mar-2009 at 08:39 |
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beTon
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#4 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 08:20 |
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good point! it will come with time here to, but until few years ago one couldnt expect nothing from mostly criminal transition period, now finally there is smell of real positive activity on all fields. unfortunately just when we bounce forward after quite long time, bad luck had struck again, first the nato blockade and all anticipated stand-by investors with it, and after that like all world (but in worst time for us) we welcomed the global economy slump. but the progresion of country development didnt stop, for now I think there are plenty projects started which first of all we must get them near to completition (ensure the purse), along with them we must invest quality time in profitable cultural and economic strategies, for example we must merge the domestic resources and capital to bust productivity, forcing small business and encouraging people to invest in their own country (not run away) in first place forcing tourism or organic agronomy etc. and normally government must proceed searching for friendly partners and persuade them to empty their pockets on big hand and pour billions in our yard, normally keeping the good tax climate which attract positive attention … this is the correct direction to normal progress that will lead to modern look of our country! however there is another path to quick growth for fancy way of life, which is rather suicide than salvation for the state and its people, although in whole world this is mainly practice, its called “lets borrow some” or “life on the cuff” (живот на вересија), and this is where our country stand somewhere at the bottom (for good or bad). just take any neighbor country for comparison and you will figure out quickly that their prosperity is too buried in external debt, as in public sector so as in private sector. only Albania could be compared with us farley, but again theyre now joining the debt club quickly with wide opened pocket, also they have strong diaspora investments… sea... I believe exploration on the mater would not hurt anybody, before one can bring any conclusion for development in Macedonia … so give us a little time for reorganization, which has already started, laid back and watch what will happen in the future if this country accelerate todays tempo of economic growth like I said before on normal and real scale and not in abstract and delusive growth, I believe that Macedonia will shine as chrystmass tree, and in the future any comparison with the neighbours will be ridiculous. In the past we had anecdote for an indebted person “you owe as greece” cause greece is buildet on the arms of eu and usa funds, which in the end didn’t brought any prosperity only empty promises, here lays the explanation why greece is subsiding local and rural economies on large scale, cause that is not their money. just to mention again your constatation - greece is most underwrited state in all the europian union, so please in future have in mind those paradigms when you try to compare two extremely different economies. List of countries by external debt - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt Macedonia Gross external debt for 2008 Public debt - 1.06 billion Private debt - 1.94 billion Total external debt - 3 billion euro here is something on the false eyelashes Edited by beTon - 26-Mar-2009 at 05:46 |
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lslcrew
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Joined: 14-Jan-2008 Location: Skopje Online Status: Offline Posts: 10988 |
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#5 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 05:45 |
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Before the process od financial decentralization started, there was a formula that gave the municipalities exact number of money per capita. The last number which I remeber was obout two thousand denars per capita. But no after the whole process od decentralization started, now it's completely different and every municipality budget depends on it's local taxes, a percent od VAT, a percent from the personal tax etc.
But It's now away from the truth to say that 99% of the money controls the goverment. I would rather say thet this is a well known political problem than only a sad wish to somebody to just controll the money. |
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Cloverstack
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#6 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 02:33 |
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 I exagerrated, but the amount of money that the local authorities can raise independently is far from what they really need even for basic functioning, let alone some serious investment. |
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macedonia
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#7 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 02:26 |
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A proper share of the public money should be distributed to the local
authorities by a formula that takes into account all the relevant
factors.
wtf? It is not like that already? Central government controls 99%? You guys seriously need a new system! |
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Cloverstack
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#8 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 02:11 |
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What point exactly dude? You mix it all up.
I stressed that statues and similar things are just a tiny amount of the total public spending in one country. You do understand this part or what? Concentrate on this:
And for the money that Skopje gets back, you admit that they are mostly shitty projects that noone needs, but then go on to say that Skopje "gets built". So you stay blind to the real problem and again miss the point completely. As far as I'm concerned you can have the damn statues or ridiculous fugly buildings in Bitola instead of Skopje for all I care, actually I'd be glad to get them out of my city if I could somehow. You say that other cities get thrown a bone by getting a new layer of asphalt now and then. Have you seen how Skopje's streets look like? They are on average probably among the worst in the country while having to support most of the economic activity. And why shouldn't I mention failed tenders? They too cost money to run! The money for roads come from special funds so what? That money doesn't fall from mars. They are taken from the taxpayer (by far the biggest amount of money comes from Skopje), or even if they are loans, they still get repayed by taxpayer money. There is a simple solution at least to the distribution and redustribution of money problem - tha central government shouldn't have 99% of the money and then redistribute it how it sees fit (irresponsibly and with political background). A proper share of the public money should be distributed to the local authorities by a formula that takes into account all the relevant factors. We can continue this discussion if you feel that we need a witch hunt, but we won't have better development, not in Skopje, not in Bitola, not anywhere by doing that. |
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гитардемон
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#9 Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 01:28 |
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My point exactly! You said the same things I said. The tax payers' dollars (actually denars, but I'm on a role here  ) are being spent like crazy on shitty projects no one needs (with all due respect to some exceptions), and are of no use to anyone! But those projects are all in Skopje. Thus, all the state money goes to Skopje, even though no one ever benefits from that (which is besides the point here, but still a humongous problem). Don't mention the tenders that have all failed, that's no investment. The reconstruction of major roads? That's done using special funds which wouldn't give away their money for someone to build a courthouse guarded by a phalanx. So basically, what I'm saying is, the money being spent by the government (from its own pocket, as I like saying) in the rest of the country adds up to a total of $~0,00! I know those funds aren't charity, so they will have to pay those debts sooner or later, but still... One feels bad when Skopje is being built with so much money by the tax-payers, while the rest of the country gets thrown a bone at by having a new asphalt layer laid on the nearby local road, using money from different loans or grants, which basically translates into: "the charity goes for you guys, while the real money goes to Skopje". Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean that if it's funded by some grants or favourable loans it's bad, but things aren't really balanced. Why not build a new courthouse in Bitola? The one we have there is a 40-yr old building that was recently 'expanded' and now has a loft (which looks butt ugly by the way). It's one of the 4, 5, how many courts in Macedonia? Why shouldn't it get a new building? There's just no excuse. I might sound too offensive, but that's the truth. I know I've made things look quite simple in this post, as if there are only 10 investments per year in the entire country, but the truth is not far from that. Just name 3 projects that the government has financed over the past 3 years, not just this year, that are outside of Skopje. I can name the Ohrid bypass and the Veles theater. Nothing else comes on my mind, and I'm pretty sure you can't think of anything else either.
Nah, it's actually cool. A nice small place to relax. No urban stress, no nothing (as if living in Bitola is stressful). I admit it's 10x better than any city in Macedonia, big or small, but the part about the nightlife was plain wrong, and I had to let you know After all, Greeks are known to party in bouzouktzidika (where they play bouzouki and throw flowers) while discotheques are not that popular there. If you don't like laika (the modern folk music) then it's hard to have a nice time. In Athens and the islands maybe (Thes/niki too :/) but up north, no way Jose!Edited by гитардемон - 25-Mar-2009 at 01:32 |
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Arguing on the internet is like running at the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
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Cloverstack
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#10 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 23:49 |
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gitar, epten zabega so juznite sosedi zosto i kako ne narekuvale. stavot ti e vo najmala merka naiven i neseriozen, ama vo sekoj slucaj zabeguva od temata pa da ne go razglabame ponataka
a za ova:
Are you actually being serious??? A lot of public money gets redistributed in this country (I expect that you do understand that public spending is not only limited to statues) and there is no question that Skopje is a net contributor, not a net receiver of funds. But that is perfectly fine and understandable and I don't have a problem with it. I only wish it was done in a responsible way that stimulates the growth of the economy in the country. So, the problem is not in Skopje supposedly "eating" all the money. The problem with the lack of development (Skopje included) is that the public spending is done through a badly designed system where petty politics plays the main role and neglects the urgent priorities while wasting huge sums on all kinds of BS like inflated (party membership) administration, statues, glass domes, universities and scientific institutions in little towns and villages, countless failed public tenders, pointless advertisments by the government and so on and so on... Edited by Cloverstack - 25-Mar-2009 at 00:13 |
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macedonia
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Joined: 01-Feb-2008 Location: Lerinsko Online Status: Offline Posts: 751 |
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#11 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 22:04 |
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 I'm sorry you hate Florina so much, but come on, for a city of such small size it has almost everything Bitola has. That is what I love about it, in a way its a small friendly town but with an urban city feel. |
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гитардемон
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#12 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 20:08 |
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I often disagree on this matter. If this wasn't the case, they would call us Makedonistan or whatever... Slavomakedonia (as they did), but they realized it's all Skopje + a few corn fields. It's pretty clear that the rest of the country is unheard of in the rest of the world (even though Skopje is too) .
Bitola does just about the same, and attracts more Greek citizens than Gevgelija. The thing is that Bitola attracts local farmers (poor people) from Florina and Edessa, and rarely rich gamblers or shoppers/tourists from Thessaloniki, let alone Central Greece. The thing with Gevgelija is that Thes/niki is just 50 mins away, and accessible via motorway (unlike Bitola, accessible only via "goat trails"-mountain roads, and 2 hrs away.) But still I assure you Bitola is by far a more attractive destination for Greeks (have heard it myself many times), but hey, the (unexistent) infrastructure (on both sides) plays a great part here.
Hey dude, reality check! Skopje does not give anything to the other cities! Why? Because no state money is ever invested in the rest of the cities. That's what we're discussing here. But anyway, state money is supposed to be invested in roads, bridges and railways, not churches, clocktowers and internet cafés (as I previously stated), so I don't want state money invested in churches in my city! But I don't want them invested in Skopje either. Fair enough?
I didn't say Skopje $üçk$ or it's the citizens' fault, I just said Skopje eats all the money up. It's not the mayor's fault either, it's the government's fault, and has always been (20 yrs now), which is the undeniable truth. It doesn't matter if they invest money in fashion shows or dog shows... Whatever it is, it still is done with state money! But since there's no stopping them, I really would like to see those loads of cash invested in something useful, so that I have a reason to feel bad that my city isn't getting anything (while it should, as well as the other 30+ cities). This way I'm just pissed because there are so many stupid people that are happy to have a cat sitting on a ball and a freaky little girl put on the main pedestrian street (I'm talking about the sculptures/statues), and think it's a gift from god, and it's a sin to ask for more. With that kind of attitude, we're not getting anywhere. While the last sentence was way off and had nothing to do with the subject, it's obvious that the people of Skopje don't see this as unfair and unjust. I really don't think I need to present any evidence to support my position, it's obvious, and easy to check. Just ask the forum members that aren't from Skopje, and you'll get the answer in an instant.
Man, I don't know who you hung out with in Bitola, but I assure you, and I know this from personal experience, that Florina is as dull as they get. Sth like Ohio, give or take The night life has nothing to do with what we're talking about here, but Florina sucks ∂ønkey båll$, and Bitola is way better than Florina (but still stupid, at best, compared to Skopje). The cleanliness part is what I definitely agree with, but hey, it's a small place, if you do something stupid you might get caught, and then everyone will know (if you're not from the Balkans this might seem pretty confusing to you, but that's how life goes here, what others say and think of you). Just go to Thessaloniki, and see how 'clean' it is. But it's no excuse, Berlin is gigantic, and still cleaner than any city in Macedonia.
That comes as a result to Greece's κοινωτικά πλαίσια στήριξης, which are something like what we had in former Yugoslavia, 5-year plans (funded with EU's money of course, but not by the EU), during which roads, bridges - infrastructure to cut to the chase, is built. Also, the EU has a programme (the ERDF - European Regional Development Fund) for the underdeveloped peripherial parts of its member countries, which I assure you throws money at EU's members begging them to improve the infrastructure, quality of life (and other sectors, I forgot how they group them) in such areas.. So, it should't come as a surprize. While all other (now) EU member countries took advantage of EU's funds while they were still only candidate countries, we, (having mastermind accountants and attorneys), couldn't fiil out the forms needed to be eligible for EU's funds in time, and now they say that by 2010 we might get fundings in 3 out of 5 sectors. Edited by гитардемон - 24-Mar-2009 at 20:10 |
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Arguing on the internet is like running at the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
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macedonia
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Joined: 01-Feb-2008 Location: Lerinsko Online Status: Offline Posts: 751 |
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#13 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 16:53 |
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You seem to like the idea of building in infrastructure. That's not a bad idea, Greece invested heavily in progects that involved building roads, bridges, public transportation (for example Solun is getting a new subway system), and don't forget the 2004 olympics. I think investing in infrastructure is a great opportunity to create more jobs and bring the unemployment level down, for Macedonia infrastructure should be the top priority of the government. But in the case with Greece, there was kind of a bad effect from this, it attracted thousands of illegal migrant workers from Albania to come and work for cheap wages (there is an extimated 1 million Albanian immigrants in Greece, of which 400,000 are registered). I still kind of like the idea of the government assisting its citizens in opening new businesses, even if that "70%" does sound a little exagerated. That list of all the things I mentioned before, i was trying to describe what I saw as a result of a thriving business enviroment - the government is obviously doing something right if it attracted Spanish and German companies to open supermarkets in a small town like Lerin. |
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Cloverstack
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#14 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 15:38 |
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@ macedonia
We are talking about different things obviously. What I meant was to compare the country where you live and Macedonia in the field of how the central government manages to stimulate development throughout the country. Not Lerin and Bitola on how the nightlife is. Again... squares, nightlife, supermarkets, apartment buildings, office buildings, car repair shops, grocery stores, pharmacies, restaurants, cafes, plasma TVs, insurance offices, hair salons mustn't be a government business. Even if the information about the 70% is accurate I dont think it is the right way to stimulate development. The government should build infrastructure, ensure law and order, provide public education and healthcare of an adequate quality, put the macroeconomics in order, create specific conditions that stimulate development... What is wrong with Macedonia is not that Skopje gets too much public investment (which is untrue anyway, and like I said even the money that Skopje gets from the government is invested very unwisely and irresponsibly). What is wrong with Macedonia is that the infrastructure is generally in a very bad shape and is not really a priority for the government or most of the the local authorities for that matter. The government does not esure law and order, infact they often break the laws themselves. The education is subject to populist experiments that fail miserably and so on. Those and similar to those are the factors that will cripple us in the future if we don't change the way we run our country, not the myth that Skopje somehow robs the rest of the country. Edited by Cloverstack - 24-Mar-2009 at 15:40 |
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macedonia
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#15 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 15:25 |
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delete
Edited by macedonia - 20-Aug-2012 at 03:38 |
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pbanks
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#16 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 15:19 |
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but that's another, quite different and richer country you are talking about. It's no secret that Macedonia is among the 2-3 poorest countries in Europe. So such comparisons don't make much sense. It's something that we should strive for, but I wouldn't expect it in the next 20 years, and only if we immediately start working much more than now. |
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macedonia
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#17 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 15:11 |
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@cloverstack
My family is from Lerin, so if you want we can compare Lerin and Bitola. I guess the reason why Bitola came as a big shock to me is because I was in Lerin 2 years ago and it was just going through a building boom, there were new apartments being built everywhere (5+ floors), there are like 5 new supermarkets that just opened (some German and Spanish companies), infrastructure is not the best but the roads and bridges are in good shape. They also have a huge renovated central square, and a very very large active nightlife. All this and at the end of the day the population of Lerin is just some 12,000 people. I don't know, I guess I was just expecting more when I went to Bitola because it has a population of some 80,000 people, instead I found that Lerin has a more "city" feel to it, and it is much more cleaner and newer. Don't get me wrong I still love Bitola, it is a unique city with great historical value, but I find that it is lacking a lot when compared to other cities.
The life in the village was also great, my family comes from a village near Lerin with only 800 people, yet it has a car mechanic, grocery store, pharmacy, 2 schools, restaurant, cafes, insurence office, hair salon, and the village square has just been renovated with marble. How many villages in Macedonia with the same population can say they have half those things? The locals told me that the goverment will pay 70% of the costs of opening a new business, which is why many have done so. They also told me that the banks were easily giving loans away to anyone (I guess those days are over now).
@gitar
I agree with your view Edited by macedonia - 24-Mar-2009 at 15:16 |
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pbanks
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#18 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 13:29 |
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@gitar
I agree with you but I fail to see how this is Skopje's fault? I didn't see any argumentation about this in the very same discussion in Macedonian language. The truth is that the government does control the money while all the municipalities, and especially Skopje are undermined and discriminated. Statues might cost but in essence they are a pure waste of money. Skopje won't benefit from them (probably the contrary), they won't increase the quality of life. So in simple words we are talking about a waste of money on state level, and Skopje is the victim like all the others. I'm all for equal regional development, but let's be fair in the discussion. Edited by pbanks - 24-Mar-2009 at 13:29 |
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lslcrew
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#19 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 13:14 |
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Gitar, you should not take as relevant what do the people in greece mean about our country and it's geography. At least take another country becous of the well known problem.
I cannot agree with your opinion. Nobody can judge Skopje because it has developed more than other 30+ cities. Let's take Gevgelija as a example of fast development. Gevgelija is existing under the same laws and regulation as Skopje, as Bitola, as Ohrid, as Strumica etc. But Gevgelija is different thaty the other because they found a new way to make profit, the greek citizens come to Gevgelija to gamle, to wash their cars, to go to dentist, to go shopping. Why Bitola can't do that?! Thei ar the same distance from the border, they have E-corridor through their city?! Skopje cannot be the fault always about the other cities low grade of development. As I told before, NOBODY can judge Skopje because of the amount of money that Skopje "gives" for the other cities. I don't want to sound like I'am local Skopje patriot but this the sad truth about macedonian development. |
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гитардемон
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#20 Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 13:02 |
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Well, as a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, I can say that I feel like living in North Korea. The government controls all my money, tells me things that no sane person would ever believe, and tries to make me think that the rest of the world is evil and Macedonia is the place to be. But that's another thing, so let's keep it out of this discussion. As far as the investments go, I think that the general public agrees that Skopje gets all the money (just ask the Greeks which call us Republic of Skopje... why? because they think it's a banana republic consisting of one city and two villages, not that far from the truth really), but only people that come from Skopje disagree. IMHO even if Skopje would contribute 95% of the country's GDP, that's no excuse as to why all the money should be invested there. Being equal (equality) does not mean Skopje is better than you just because Skopje gives us a shitload of money and you don't. The new bill (or it already passed as a law?) that provided a monthly fee to every family which lives in a low-birthrate municipality and has 3+/4+ children, was deemed unconstitutional and even !discriminatory! because it only benefits certain parts of the country, leaving out other parts of Macedonia. OK, it was the constitutional court's verdict, they should know better than me... But how does that case differ? It's the same thing! It's unconstitutional for someone to build buildings in one part of the country, leaving out other parts! Even though this post might seem too political, the truth is... that it is!
It has to do with politics. Macedonia was in a standstill (or regression if you like) 5 years ago, but there were no such stupid investments whatsoever, and now all of a sudden, "investments" everywhere. If the country wants to move forward, some people will have to understand that Macedonia is not Skopje, but the other 30+ cities too. The villages will have to wait for a better day, maybe election day. I think that Cloverstack put it very well, every city/municipality needs to mind only its own business, and the same goes for the government 10x. Their job is to build roads, not to build statues and make sculptures.Edited by гитардемон - 24-Mar-2009 at 13:07 |
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Arguing on the internet is like running at the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
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